Comments on: Eckel on Java vs Rails: The departure of the hyper-enthusiasts http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/ Software Development Blog Thu, 28 Aug 2008 05:26:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Geert Bevin http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-9 Geert Bevin Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:06:54 +0000 http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-9 No, web container needed, you need the JDK, yes, but you'd also need Ruby. As you say, I can make the same argument, any Solaris or MacOSX comes with Java but not Ruby. Windows comes with neither, though a lot of vendors start to include a JRE. So the installation of a base platform is as 'difficult' for Java as for Ruby. From there onwards, you can use RIFE/Jumpstart with any development environment you like immediately (IDEA, Eclipse, Ant, X-develop, CodeGuide, Netbeans) and get started in less than a minute. No, web container needed, you need the JDK, yes, but you’d also need Ruby. As you say, I can make the same argument, any Solaris or MacOSX comes with Java but not Ruby. Windows comes with neither, though a lot of vendors start to include a JRE.

So the installation of a base platform is as ‘difficult’ for Java as for Ruby. From there onwards, you can use RIFE/Jumpstart with any development environment you like immediately (IDEA, Eclipse, Ant, X-develop, CodeGuide, Netbeans) and get started in less than a minute.

]]> By: Hackerdude http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-8 Hackerdude Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:24:57 +0000 http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-8 <a href="http://rifers.org/" rel="nofollow">Rife</a> indeed looks great, but your "less than a minute" mention (on how easy it is to get up and running) does assume you already have the JDK, ant, junit and Tomcat or other webapp container - remember, I did mention <em>from scratch</em>. By themselves these things can take a while to acquire, and the experience of acquiring and putting them together is not achieved in a day. <a href="http://maven.apache.org/" rel="nofollow">Maven</a> helps of course, but it is not pervasive in the java culture. On the ruby side you can assume that if you run any kind of modern Linux you at least have ruby 1.8.2. Typing "gem install rails" brings in activerecord, test:unit, the rails framework and all dependencies, and autoconfigures everything but the database itself. Having used both I can tell you that on a from scratch situation (on both Linux and Windows), I'll still be moving libraries to WEB-INF/lib and setting up a build script, while on rails I will have my first scaffolding up and running. In fairness I do have to say that I have had to install ruby 1.8.3 on some boxes, namely solaris and mac types which are typically slow to upgrade their base installs. I will nevertheless take a look at it, as it looks easier than the current solutions (spring, struts). I'm not bashing Rife, I'm just saying the java environment doesn't lend itself to this type of solution. This is not a technology problem, mind you, and it's certainly not the fault of RIFE (or Spring, or Struts). It's simply Sun's unwillingness to work with its community to support what become de-facto standards, or at least provide prominent "getting started" guides that include what people are actually using. Just as a couple of test cases: Logging. It took sun years to get a logging framework in their system and they still wrote their own. Same thing happened with XML parsers. What the platform needs is for Java evangelists to come up with easy ways to get started, and Sun needs to play along, even if they don't mention Sun products. Read the <a href="http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Teaching/Resources/General/ant/" rel="nofollow">Ant call to action</a> (at the bottom of the page, it can also be found on their welcome.html in the ant download) for a manifestation on this frustration. Rife indeed looks great, but your “less than a minute” mention (on how easy it is to get up and running) does assume you already have the JDK, ant, junit and Tomcat or other webapp container - remember, I did mention from scratch. By themselves these things can take a while to acquire, and the experience of acquiring and putting them together is not achieved in a day. Maven helps of course, but it is not pervasive in the java culture.

On the ruby side you can assume that if you run any kind of modern Linux you at least have ruby 1.8.2. Typing “gem install rails” brings in activerecord, test:unit, the rails framework and all dependencies, and autoconfigures everything but the database itself. Having used both I can tell you that on a from scratch situation (on both Linux and Windows), I’ll still be moving libraries to WEB-INF/lib and setting up a build script, while on rails I will have my first scaffolding up and running.

In fairness I do have to say that I have had to install ruby 1.8.3 on some boxes, namely solaris and mac types which are typically slow to upgrade their base installs.

I will nevertheless take a look at it, as it looks easier than the current solutions (spring, struts). I’m not bashing Rife, I’m just saying the java environment doesn’t lend itself to this type of solution.

This is not a technology problem, mind you, and it’s certainly not the fault of RIFE (or Spring, or Struts). It’s simply Sun’s unwillingness to work with its community to support what become de-facto standards, or at least provide prominent “getting started” guides that include what people are actually using. Just as a couple of test cases: Logging. It took sun years to get a logging framework in their system and they still wrote their own. Same thing happened with XML parsers.

What the platform needs is for Java evangelists to come up with easy ways to get started, and Sun needs to play along, even if they don’t mention Sun products. Read the Ant call to action (at the bottom of the page, it can also be found on their welcome.html in the ant download) for a manifestation on this frustration.

]]> By: Geert Bevin http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-5 Geert Bevin Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:10:59 +0000 http://www.hackerdude.com/2005/12/19/eckel-on-java-vs-rails-the-departure-of-the-hyper-enthusiasts/#comment-5 Not all Java solutions require you to spend hours setting up an entire stack of frameworks and let them work together. Using RIFE, you're up and running with our Jumpstart in less than a minute: http://rifers.org/theater/rifejumpstart_xdevelop Not all Java solutions require you to spend hours setting up an entire stack of frameworks and let them work together. Using RIFE, you’re up and running with our Jumpstart in less than a minute: http://rifers.org/theater/rifejumpstart_xdevelop

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